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Mark Fallon, "Unjustifiable Means: The Inside Story of How the CIA, Pentagon, and US Government Conspired to Torture" (Regan Arts, 2017)
Episode 115
Thursday, 8 May, 2025
From busting drug lords to leading the Pentagon task force charged with bringing the 9/11 terrorists to justice, Mark Fallon has spent his career on the front lines of U.S. national security. My first guest is one of the most fascinating people I've interviewed. Former NCIS Special Agent in Charge Mark Fallon is a national security consultant, scholar, and expert in counterintelligence and counterterrorism who's been involved in some of the most significant terrorism investigations in U.S. history. Mark served more than thirty years in government—twenty-seven with the NCIS and two as a Senior Executive within the Department of Homeland Security. He received numerous awards and medals for his service, including the Department of Defense Counterintelligence Award for Outstanding Achievement and the U.S. Secret Service Director Honors Award. As an NCIS Special Agent, Mark operated undercover in some of the most dangerous places in the world—from infiltrating drug rings in Thailand to capturing poachers in Kenya. He takes us inside his undercover operations and describes his strategy for a successful mission. We talked about the interview and interrogation techniques that actually work (hint: they involve rapport and, occasionally, French fries), and the moment his wife discovered details of an undercover operation. In the wake of the 9/11 terrorist attacks, Mark was appointed Deputy Commander and Special Agent in Charge of the Pentagon task force, responsible for investigating terrorists for possible trials before military commissions. His critically acclaimed book, Unjustifiable Means: The Inside Story of How the CIA, Pentagon, and US Government Conspired to Torture (Regan Arts, 2017) offers a gripping account of the leadership challenges he faced while trying to bring terrorists to justice without compromising his oath to protect and defend the Constitution. Mark opens up about what it takes to lead under pressure, the duty to disobey an unlawful order, and why interrogators make the best first dates He shares leadership lessons that extend far beyond national security—tools for navigating crisis, conflict, and high-stakes decisions in any field. Today, as founder of ClubFed, Mark serves as an international security consultant and continues his mission for improving the practice of interviews and interrogations. Pulitzer Prize–winning investigative reporter Bill Dedman calls Mark Fallon "the Serpico in the war on terror," and high-ranking officials call him an American hero who’s made the world safer. Listen to the podcast—and you'll understand why. Pamela Hamilton is the award-winning author of Lady Be Good: The Life and Times of Dorothy Hale, Kirkus Best Book of the Year and Publishers Weekly Editor's Pick. As a producer with NBC News for nearly 15 years, she interviewed prominent figures in business, entertainment, lifestyle, and the arts. Visit www.pamelalhamilton.com to learn more — and sign up to be notified when new episodes are released. Connect on Instagram and Facebook @pamelahamiltonauthor. "We told them 'You may not, you must not—you have a duty not to obey an unlawful order." Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/law
