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The Conditional Release ProgramSticking the boot into conspiracy theorists, q-anon, sovereign citizens and lunatics in general. Author: Jack the Insider and Joel Hill
Welcome to The Conditional Release Program, a podcast that delves into the netherworld of cults, crims and con artists.Who would have thought a spicy chest cough would turn everyone so completely mad?Our weekly show covers the conspiracy theorists that created a 'shadow pandemic' of political idiocy and violent ideation within the fringe of politics. From time to time we get our hands even dirtier with true crime deep dives. Jack is a seasoned expert in the true crime genre, having written and spoken extensively about Roger Rogerson, Stan 'the man' Smith and, of course, the Fine Cotton Fiasco. In various episodes he guides us through the dark underbelly of Australian crime in his trademark storytelling style. The world is getting weird and we are getting weird with it. Let's watch as democracy crumbles into a smouldering heap - and take note of the kids carrying the matches and the metho. Hosted by Jack the Insider and Joel Hill with an occasional rotation of guests that generally share our distaste toward the lunatic fringe. Language: en-us Genres: News, News Commentary, Politics Contact email: Get it Feed URL: Get it iTunes ID: Get it Trailer: |
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Two Jacks – Episode 139 - Guns, Hate Speech and the Bondi Massacre
Wednesday, 17 December, 2025
THERE ARE REPORTS OF AN ISSUE OF OVERLAP AT THE END OF THE EPISODE - THIS WILL (PROBABLY) BE FIXED AT SOME POINT. More slop but hey it's detailed. That's nice.00:25 – Hanukkah, Bondi and a terror attackJoel (Jack the Insider) opens the Christmas‑eve episode by recounting the Hanukkah celebration at Bondi Beach that turned into a mass‑shooting, with 16 dead including Holocaust survivor Alex Kleitman and 10‑year‑old Matilda.He notes that one gunman, Sajid Akram, was killed and his son Naveed faces 59 charges including 15 murders and a terrorism offence, while funerals proceed under a cloud of grief.02:05 – Anti‑Semitic threats and the rise of Jew hatredThe Jacks detail an anti‑Semitic threat on a Virgin Australia flight from Denpasar to Sydney, where a 19‑year‑old allegedly made violent gestures and threats toward a Jewish passenger.They discuss how contemporary anti‑Semitism in Australia and the West feels broader and deeper than before, increasingly visible on progressive and left‑wing fringes as well as the far right.04:55 – Jenny Leong’s “tentacles” remark and Greens politicsJoel quotes NSW Greens MLC Jenny Leong’s 2023 comments about the “Jewish lobby” and “Zionist lobby” having “tentacles” infiltrating community groups, likening the rhetoric to classic Nazi tropes in Der Stürmer.Jack notes Leong is part of NSW’s hard‑left “watermelon” Greens and argues such language shows how anti‑Jewish narratives have crept into mainstream progressive politics in Australia, the UK and the US.07:25 – Apologies, anti‑Zionism and the limits of definitionsThey note Leong apologised two months later for “poor choice of words” with anti‑Semitic implications, but Joel says the tentacle imagery hung “like a bad smell” over public debate.The Jacks criticise semantic wrangling over definitions of anti‑Semitism and suggest calling much of it what it plainly is: old‑fashioned Jew hatred, often masked as anti‑Zionism.10:25 – Who failed after 7 October? Government responses under fireJack argues federal and state leaders failed from “October 8th on” by not responding strongly enough to anti‑Jewish rhetoric and protests, suggesting Labor tried to balance Jewish concerns against Western Sydney Muslim votes.Joel pushes back, citing Sean Carney’s column outlining how Naveed Akram’s jihadist associations, ASIO assessments and gun‑licence decisions date back to the Morrison/Dutton era and pre‑Albanese security failures.13:55 – ASIO, gun licensing and unanswered questionsThe Jacks highlight ASIO’s prior knowledge of Naveed’s extremist links and question how Sajid Akram obtained a semi‑automatic shotgun with only an AB licence when B/C categories are needed for that weapon.They call for frank explanations from ASIO and NSW firearms licensing about assessments, paper trails and whether bureaucratic or resourcing failures allowed Akram to amass an arsenal worth around $30,000.17:55 – Under‑resourced counter‑terror units and a fearful Jewish communityJoel cites a retired AFP counter‑terror investigator who says counter‑terror units are stacked with officers fresh out of the academy instead of seasoned detectives.Jack reflects on three decades of Jewish institutions in Sydney’s east needing armed guards, and shares conversations with Jewish friends who now quietly contemplate leaving Australia because they no longer feel safe.20:35 – “Don’t bring your old hatreds here”The Jacks trace anti‑Jewish attacks in Sydney back to the 1982 Hakoah Club car bombing and the simultaneous attack on the Israeli consulate, arguing Jewish Australians have lived with this threat for over 40 years.They say successive governments failed to hammer home a core Australian expectation: migrants must not import centuries‑old religious or ethnic hatreds into their new home.23:05 – Segal anti‑Semitism strategy and hate‑speech lawsThey briefly canvass the Gillian Segal anti‑Semitism strategy; Jack dismisses it as “word salad” and window dressing, while Joel notes the government has been slow to act on its recommendations.On hate‑speech laws, Jack argues bans on offensive political opinions tend to drive hatred underground and make it more dangerous, but both agree incitement to violence must remain a prosecutable offence, possibly with updated legislation.26:00 – Policing protests and the limits of crowd controlThe Jacks explain why police sometimes tolerate ugly slogans at protests: wading in for arrests can inflame crowds that already vastly outnumber officers.They stress the need to balance immediate public safety and officer safety with the longer‑term risk that demonstrators feel they can incite hatred with impunity.29:00 – Bondi’s stain and its heroesJoel laments that Bondi Beach, an iconic Australian destination, will now always be associated with a massacre, describing a moment of nausea as the death toll climbed on that Sunday night.Jack reminisces about Bondi’s 1990s mix of Kiwis, working‑class locals and a relaxed Jewish presence, and fears that openness has been permanently damaged.32:05 – Old‑school cop and a Syrian‑Australian heroThey praise the middle‑aged, tie‑wearing NSW officer who initiated the “beginning of the end” of the attack and commend off‑duty police who rushed to Bondi and threw on uniforms.Joel celebrates North Bondi tobacconist Al Ahmad, a Syrian‑born resident who tackled the gunman with astonishing courage, noting he now seems certain to receive Australian citizenship along with his parents.35:10 – Patrol strength, long guns and local station realitiesThe Jacks relay reports that only three officers were on duty at Bondi police station, which Joel describes as a relatively minor station compared to Rose Bay or Maroubra.They question why frontline police responding to long‑gun threats were not issued rifles of their own and suggest NSW should review access to long arms for first responders in high‑risk scenarios.38:00 – Multiculturalism, old enmities and what really matters nextJack argues that, in an immigrant nation, the most important response is cultural: reinstilling the norm that old tribal feuds must be left behind, not accommodated.Joel agrees this message should be central in citizenship education and public rhetoric, more important than technocratic hate‑speech tweaks or reactive gun‑law posturing.42:05 – National Cabinet, ASIO and the demand for competenceThey criticise the National Cabinet’s muted post‑Bondi meeting, which produced little beyond talk, and suggest the Prime Minister’s cautious style leaves a leadership vacuum in national crises.The Jacks insist Australians accept that security agencies cannot be omniscient, but say they must be properly resourced, competent and transparent when they make mistakes.45:25 – Around the world: headscarves, condoms, climate and Reddit vs CanberraThe Jacks whip around global headlines: Austria’s ban on headscarves for under‑14s, China’s 13% tax on condoms and contraceptives to boost fertility, Denmark listing the US as a security risk, and the US government quietly deleting “fossil fuels” as a named cause of climate change from official websites.They note Reddit’s legal challenge to Australia’s under‑16 social media ban and question whether Reddit is the ideal platform to front that fight given its often unpoliced content.47:35 – Venezuela, the ICC and the limits of international lawVenezuela moves to withdraw from the International Criminal Court as investigations into alleged Maduro‑regime crimes against humanity advance.Jack says the episode encapsulates international law’s limits: states happily sign the Rome Statute until it becomes inconvenient, then walk away.48:55 – Ireland rearms and Russia blocks “unfriendly” callsIreland announces a 55 per cent jump in defence spending to protect undersea data cables and deter drones, reflecting its geostrategic importance as a trans‑Atlantic communications hub.Russia, meanwhile, moves to block incoming calls from “unfriendly” states; the Jacks mock the performative toughness and note how easily scammers will route around any such ban.51:15 – Rob Reiner’s murder and a towering film legacyThey react with shock to the murder of legendary director Rob Reiner and his wife, allegedly by Reiner’s troubled son, whose earlier violence was itself the subject of a film.Jack runs through Reiner’s extraordinary run—This Is Spinal Tap, The Princess Bride, Stand By Me, When Harry Met Sally, A Few Good Men—and argues that if you’d made only those, you’d still have had a remarkable career.54:45 – “This one goes to 11” and Trump’s gracelessnessThe Jacks recall how Spinal Tap helped invent the mockumentary form and embedded lines like “this one goes to 11” into pop‑culture vocabulary.They condemn Donald Trump’s statement calling Reiner “a terrible human being” after his death, with conservative actor James Woods publicly rebuking Trump and praising Reiner’s personal kindness despite political differences.57:40 – Carl Reiner, Mel Brooks and comedy royaltyJoel outlines Rob Reiner’s upbringing in a house full of comedic giants, with father Carl Reiner and close friend Mel Brooks holding weekly movie nights together well into old age, as captured in Jerry Seinfeld’s Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee.They reminisce about Carl and Mel’s influence on Jewish humour and lament the passing of a generation of comic geniuses.01:01:05 – EVs, hybrids and a Two Jacks lunch betThe Jacks revisit their running argument over electric vehicles, prompted by Ford CEO Jim Farley’s plan to pivot the F‑150 towards hybrids instead of pure EVs.Joel, a hybrid owner, sees hybrids as a transition technology in countries like Australia where fast‑charge infrastructure is patchy; he cites global EV sales rising to roughly 18–20 per cent of new car sales in 2025, with internal‑combustion shares steadily shrinking.01:03:05 – Charging reality vs theory in AustraliaJoel recounts his in‑laws’ BMW EV trip from central Victoria to Sydney using free or cheap NRMA/RACV chargers, but notes fast chargers are often the first to break or get switched off by retailers facing high electricity costs.They swap anecdotes about BYD and Chinese Maxus taxis—fast‑improving but sometimes uncomfortable—and admit they can no longer remember the exact terms of their EV lunch wager, though Joel insists Jack owes him.01:06:10 – Worst political year: Trump, Macron, Starmer, Albanese, Li, PutinThe Jacks playfully debate which leader had the worst year—Donald Trump, Emmanuel Macron, Keir Starmer, Anthony Albanese, Chinese Premier Li or Vladimir Putin.They characterise Albanese as the “Stephen Bradbury” of Australian politics, a cautious survivor whose luck and endurance have mattered as much as brilliance.01:18:40 – Ashes update: England’s fragile top orderIn a late segment, they revisit England’s Ashes woes: repeated collapses leaving them three‑for‑not‑many and a top three of Crawley, Duckett and Pope exposing the middle order to the new ball.Joel notes England dropped a bowler as a scapegoat while leaving the misfiring batting unchanged, and questions how long they can justify Ollie Pope at three ahead of the more solid Will Jacks.01:21:15 – Hong Kong racing, Kooring Rising and Japanese fanboy jockeysJack describes Hong Kong’s International Racing Day—four Group 1s and 80,000 people—and the rise of sprinter Kooring Rising, winner of The Everest and now on a long winning streak.He shares footage from Japan’s Nakayama track where every jockey stopped circling and sat still so they could watch Kooring Rising’s race on the big screen, a measure of the horse’s star power.01:23:00 – Listener mail, Howard’s gun laws and the Shooters lobbyJoel reads a note from listener Ray pointing out that 300 legally obtained guns are still attributed to “Howard’s gun laws”, reminding listeners gun‑law reform was necessary but later watered down under pressure from the Shooters and Fishers political lobby.01:24:00 – Christmas, loneliness and a surprise lunch guestThe Jacks close with Christmas reflections: acknowledging how joyful and stressful the season can be, especially for those who are lonely or estranged from family.Joel recalls his mother inviting a homeless man to Christmas lunch—an act of charity met with teenage grumbling from him and his brother—and urges listeners to look out for those doing it tough without necessarily going to that extreme.01:25:45 – Holiday plans and the show’s return in JanuaryJack outlines Hanukkah parties and family Christmas plans in Hong Kong, while Joel describes a quieter Highlands Christmas with a Boxing Day visit from the grandkids.They thank listeners for their support through 2025, wish everyone a Merry Christmas, and promise to return in the second week of January after a short break.00:25 – Hanukkah, Bondi and a terror attackJoel (Jack the Insider) opens the Christmas‑eve episode by recounting the Hanukkah celebration at Bondi Beach that turned into a mass‑shooting, with 16 dead including Holocaust survivor Alex Kleitman and 10‑year‑old Matilda.He notes that one gunman, Sajid Akram, was killed and his son Naveed faces 59 charges including 15 murders and a terrorism offence, while funerals proceed under a cloud of grief.02:05 – Anti‑Semitic threats and the rise of Jew hatredThe Jacks detail an anti‑Semitic threat on a Virgin Australia flight from Denpasar to Sydney, where a 19‑year‑old allegedly made violent gestures and threats toward a Jewish passenger.They discuss how contemporary anti‑Semitism in Australia and the West feels broader and deeper than before, increasingly visible on progressive and left‑wing fringes as well as the far right.04:55 – Jenny Leong’s “tentacles” remark and Greens politicsJoel quotes NSW Greens MLC Jenny Leong’s 2023 comments about the “Jewish lobby” and “Zionist lobby” having “tentacles” infiltrating community groups, likening the rhetoric to classic Nazi tropes in Der Stürmer.Jack notes Leong is part of NSW’s hard‑left “watermelon” Greens and argues such language shows how anti‑Jewish narratives have crept into mainstream progressive politics in Australia, the UK and the US.07:25 – Apologies, anti‑Zionism and the limits of definitionsThey note Leong apologised two months later for “poor choice of words” with anti‑Semitic implications, but Joel says the tentacle imagery hung “like a bad smell” over public debate.The Jacks criticise semantic wrangling over definitions of anti‑Semitism and suggest calling much of it what it plainly is: old‑fashioned Jew hatred, often masked as anti‑Zionism.10:25 – Who failed after 7 October? Government responses under fireJack argues federal and state leaders failed from “October 8th on” by not responding strongly enough to anti‑Jewish rhetoric and protests, suggesting Labor tried to balance Jewish concerns against Western Sydney Muslim votes.Joel pushes back, citing Sean Carney’s column outlining how Naveed Akram’s jihadist associations, ASIO assessments and gun‑licence decisions date back to the Morrison/Dutton era and pre‑Albanese security failures.13:55 – ASIO, gun licensing and unanswered questionsThe Jacks highlight ASIO’s prior knowledge of Naveed’s extremist links and question how Sajid Akram obtained a semi‑automatic shotgun with only an AB licence when B/C categories are needed for that weapon.They call for frank explanations from ASIO and NSW firearms licensing about assessments, paper trails and whether bureaucratic or resourcing failures allowed Akram to amass an arsenal worth around $30,000.17:55 – Under‑resourced counter‑terror units and a fearful Jewish communityJoel cites a retired AFP counter‑terror investigator who says counter‑terror units are stacked with officers fresh out of the academy instead of seasoned detectives.Jack reflects on three decades of Jewish institutions in Sydney’s east needing armed guards, and shares conversations with Jewish friends who now quietly contemplate leaving Australia because they no longer feel safe.20:35 – “Don’t bring your old hatreds here”The Jacks trace anti‑Jewish attacks in Sydney back to the 1982 Hakoah Club car bombing and the simultaneous attack on the Israeli consulate, arguing Jewish Australians have lived with this threat for over 40 years.They say successive governments failed to hammer home a core Australian expectation: migrants must not import centuries‑old religious or ethnic hatreds into their new home.23:05 – Segal anti‑Semitism strategy and hate‑speech lawsThey briefly canvass the Gillian Segal anti‑Semitism strategy; Jack dismisses it as “word salad” and window dressing, while Joel notes the government has been slow to act on its recommendations.On hate‑speech laws, Jack argues bans on offensive political opinions tend to drive hatred underground and make it more dangerous, but both agree incitement to violence must remain a prosecutable offence, possibly with updated legislation.26:00 – Policing protests and the limits of crowd controlThe Jacks explain why police sometimes tolerate ugly slogans at protests: wading in for arrests can inflame crowds that already vastly outnumber officers.They stress the need to balance immediate public safety and officer safety with the longer‑term risk that demonstrators feel they can incite hatred with impunity.29:00 – Bondi’s stain and its heroesJoel laments that Bondi Beach, an iconic Australian destination, will now always be associated with a massacre, describing a moment of nausea as the death toll climbed on that Sunday night.Jack reminisces about Bondi’s 1990s mix of Kiwis, working‑class locals and a relaxed Jewish presence, and fears that openness has been permanently damaged.32:05 – Old‑school cop and a Syrian‑Australian heroThey praise the middle‑aged, tie‑wearing NSW officer who initiated the “beginning of the end” of the attack and commend off‑duty police who rushed to Bondi and threw on uniforms.Joel celebrates North Bondi tobacconist Al Ahmad, a Syrian‑born resident who tackled the gunman with astonishing courage, noting he now seems certain to receive Australian citizenship along with his parents.35:10 – Patrol strength, long guns and local station realitiesThe Jacks relay reports that only three officers were on duty at Bondi police station, which Joel describes as a relatively minor station compared to Rose Bay or Maroubra.They question why frontline police responding to long‑gun threats were not issued rifles of their own and suggest NSW should review access to long arms for first responders in high‑risk scenarios.38:00 – Multiculturalism, old enmities and what really matters nextJack argues that, in an immigrant nation, the most important response is cultural: reinstilling the norm that old tribal feuds must be left behind, not accommodated.Joel agrees this message should be central in citizenship education and public rhetoric, more important than technocratic hate‑speech tweaks or reactive gun‑law posturing.42:05 – National Cabinet, ASIO and the demand for competenceThey criticise the National Cabinet’s muted post‑Bondi meeting, which produced little beyond talk, and suggest the Prime Minister’s cautious style leaves a leadership vacuum in national crises.The Jacks insist Australians accept that security agencies cannot be omniscient, but say they must be properly resourced, competent and transparent when they make mistakes.45:25 – Around the world: headscarves, condoms, climate and Reddit vs CanberraThe Jacks whip around global headlines: Austria’s ban on headscarves for under‑14s, China’s 13% tax on condoms and contraceptives to boost fertility, Denmark listing the US as a security risk, and the US government quietly deleting “fossil fuels” as a named cause of climate change from official websites.They note Reddit’s legal challenge to Australia’s under‑16 social media ban and question whether Reddit is the ideal platform to front that fight given its often unpoliced content.47:35 – Venezuela, the ICC and the limits of international lawVenezuela moves to withdraw from the International Criminal Court as investigations into alleged Maduro‑regime crimes against humanity advance.Jack says the episode encapsulates international law’s limits: states happily sign the Rome Statute until it becomes inconvenient, then walk away.48:55 – Ireland rearms and Russia blocks “unfriendly” callsIreland announces a 55 per cent jump in defence spending to protect undersea data cables and deter drones, reflecting its geostrategic importance as a trans‑Atlantic communications hub.Russia, meanwhile, moves to block incoming calls from “unfriendly” states; the Jacks mock the performative toughness and note how easily scammers will route around any such ban.51:15 – Rob Reiner’s murder and a towering film legacyThey react with shock to the murder of legendary director Rob Reiner and his wife, allegedly by Reiner’s troubled son, whose earlier violence was itself the subject of a film.Jack runs through Reiner’s extraordinary run—This Is Spinal Tap, The Princess Bride, Stand By Me, When Harry Met Sally, A Few Good Men—and argues that if you’d made only those, you’d still have had a remarkable career.54:45 – “This one goes to 11” and Trump’s gracelessnessThe Jacks recall how Spinal Tap helped invent the mockumentary form and embedded lines like “this one goes to 11” into pop‑culture vocabulary.They condemn Donald Trump’s statement calling Reiner “a terrible human being” after his death, with conservative actor James Woods publicly rebuking Trump and praising Reiner’s personal kindness despite political differences.57:40 – Carl Reiner, Mel Brooks and comedy royaltyJoel outlines Rob Reiner’s upbringing in a house full of comedic giants, with father Carl Reiner and close friend Mel Brooks holding weekly movie nights together well into old age, as captured in Jerry Seinfeld’s Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee.They reminisce about Carl and Mel’s influence on Jewish humour and lament the passing of a generation of comic geniuses.01:01:05 – EVs, hybrids and a Two Jacks lunch betThe Jacks revisit their running argument over electric vehicles, prompted by Ford CEO Jim Farley’s plan to pivot the F‑150 towards hybrids instead of pure EVs.Joel, a hybrid owner, sees hybrids as a transition technology in countries like Australia where fast‑charge infrastructure is patchy; he cites global EV sales rising to roughly 18–20 per cent of new car sales in 2025, with internal‑combustion shares steadily shrinking.01:03:05 – Charging reality vs theory in AustraliaJoel recounts his in‑laws’ BMW EV trip from central Victoria to Sydney using free or cheap NRMA/RACV chargers, but notes fast chargers are often the first to break or get switched off by retailers facing high electricity costs.They swap anecdotes about BYD and Chinese Maxus taxis—fast‑improving but sometimes uncomfortable—and admit they can no longer remember the exact terms of their EV lunch wager, though Joel insists Jack owes him.01:06:10 – Worst political year: Trump, Macron, Starmer, Albanese, Li, PutinThe Jacks playfully debate which leader had the worst year—Donald Trump, Emmanuel Macron, Keir Starmer, Anthony Albanese, Chinese Premier Li or Vladimir Putin.They characterise Albanese as the “Stephen Bradbury” of Australian politics, a cautious survivor whose luck and endurance have mattered as much as brilliance.01:18:40 – Ashes update: England’s fragile top orderIn a late segment, they revisit England’s Ashes woes: repeated collapses leaving them three‑for‑not‑many and a top three of Crawley, Duckett and Pope exposing the middle order to the new ball.Joel notes England dropped a bowler as a scapegoat while leaving the misfiring batting unchanged, and questions how long they can justify Ollie Pope at three ahead of the more solid Will Jacks.01:21:15 – Hong Kong racing, Kooring Rising and Japanese fanboy jockeysJack describes Hong Kong’s International Racing Day—four Group 1s and 80,000 people—and the rise of sprinter Kooring Rising, winner of The Everest and now on a long winning streak.He shares footage from Japan’s Nakayama track where every jockey stopped circling and sat still so they could watch Kooring Rising’s race on the big screen, a measure of the horse’s star power.01:23:00 – Listener mail, Howard’s gun laws and the Shooters lobbyJoel reads a note from listener Ray pointing out that 300 legally obtained guns are still attributed to “Howard’s gun laws”, reminding listeners gun‑law reform was necessary but later watered down under pressure from the Shooters and Fishers political lobby.01:24:00 – Christmas, loneliness and a surprise lunch guestThe Jacks close with Christmas reflections: acknowledging how joyful and stressful the season can be, especially for those who are lonely or estranged from family.Joel recalls his mother inviting a homeless man to Christmas lunch—an act of charity met with teenage grumbling from him and his brother—and urges listeners to look out for those doing it tough without necessarily going to that extreme.01:25:45 – Holiday plans and the show’s return in JanuaryJack outlines Hanukkah parties and family Christmas plans in Hong Kong, while Joel describes a quieter Highlands Christmas with a Boxing Day visit from the grandkids.They thank listeners for their support through 2025, wish everyone a Merry Christmas, and promise to return in the second week of January after a short break.
