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Goalie ScienceAuthor: Elite Goalie Method
Goalie Science is a podcast by goalies for goalies. The podcast covers hockey rehab, performance and science, and is hosted by former professional hockey goaltender Dr. Jamie Phillips and professional goalie coach Derek Bujan Listen in each week as we discuss the latest science and science-adjacent topics in the hockey world, and cover in depth topics for athletes, parents, coaches and more! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Language: en Genres: Hockey, Science, Sports Contact email: Get it Feed URL: Get it iTunes ID: Get it |
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Small Goalies, and Why Hockey Canada Is Failing - Epi 139
Episode 149
Wednesday, 5 August, 2026
Welcome back to Goalie Science. Ben Cernick — original co-host, PhD researcher, and the guy who quietly uncollaborated all his Instagram posts with Jamie — is back on the pod. He texted saying we were slandering him. We invited him to prove it. This is what happened. 🎓 Who Is Ben and What Does He Actually Study? Ben is two thirds through a PhD specifically focused on youth hockey development research. His work looks at how rule changes in minor hockey affect goalie and player behaviors. He works directly with the Swedish Ice Hockey Association on questions around net sizes, ice dimensions, and development outcomes at the U9 and U10 levels. He also coaches goalies privately and through association contracts and has for 15 years — contrary to what Jamie may have implied. 🔬 Research vs Reality — The Gap One of the central tensions in this episode is how academic research translates — or doesn't — to the ground floor of minor hockey. Jamie's point: no one in Hockey Canada or USA Hockey is asking coaches like him and Derek what they're seeing every day. The information flow seems to go toward Europe and Scandinavia, not toward the people running rinks in Hamilton and Grand Rapids. Ben's counterpoint: the governance structures in North America are so fragmented and geographically massive that sweeping policy changes are nearly impossible. What works in Sweden — a small, centrally governed country — doesn't automatically translate to a system covering a continent. Derek's take: parents are the biggest variable and they often don't understand the system they're operating in. You can't take parent feedback and build a meaningful picture of minor hockey from it because most parents don't know what league their kid is in, who the coach is, or how the governing bodies work. That's not a criticism — it's just not their job to know. But it means the information coaches gather from parents is filtered through a lens that's often incomplete. 🧊 Half Ice Hockey — What Actually Happened Derek told a story that basically settled the half ice debate for him. His son played both half ice MD hockey and full ice outlaw league at U9. When his U10A team started in September, the best players were the kids who had been playing full ice. By December, that had completely flipped. The kids who came from half ice hockey were the most creative, most capable players on the team — and they developed faster once exposed to full ice because they had better fundamentals. Two years later, of 15 skaters on that U10A team, only four are still playing AAA hockey. Two came from half ice. Two came from full ice. The data doesn't clearly favor either system — but Derek's lived experience does. Ben's point: the reason Sweden studies net sizes and ice dimensions is to answer a policy question — not because it directly translates to Hockey Canada tomorrow. The research informs decisions at a governing body level, not a practice level. 📏 Small Goalies — The Dustin Wolf Debate Ben raised a micro grievance: he said Dustin Wolf had a shorter AHL career than people imply before getting his NHL shot. Jamie and Derek pushed back hard. Wolf won AHL Goalie of the Year twice — 2021-22 and 2022-23 — plus AHL MVP. He made it very publicly known he was frustrated about not getting called up sooner. Michael DiPietro has since won back-to-back AHL Goalie of the Year awards and still hasn't gotten a meaningful NHL opportunity at 5'10. The argument: when you put a 6'5 goalie in who struggles, the organization says he needs more time. When a small goalie struggles, the organization says maybe he's just not big enough. The benefit of the doubt simply isn't equal. Ben acknowledged that organizations are probably more hesitant with shorter goalies — he just pushed back on the idea that it's entirely because of height, pointing to organizational variance and circumstance. Jamie and Derek weren't buying it. The scouting document was referenced again: 6'1 and under must be elite at everything. 6'2 to 6'5 just needs elite tracking and puck handling — everything else can be taught. 6'5 and up needs those two things and that's it. That's the standard. That's the hill small goalies are climbing. 🌍 European vs North American Development — The Real Reason for the Gap The real gap between European and North American goalies isn't systems or philosophy. It's participation numbers. Other countries are growing their hockey participation. Canada and the US are not. A smaller pool produces fewer elite goalies — it's that simple. Ben also pointed to the US soccer comparison: soccer is globally accessible but in the US it became expensive and privatized. The result is a smaller, wealthier pool of players. Hockey in Canada has gone the same direction. The families listening to this podcast are spending $25,000 to $30,000 a year on hockey development. That's not the average family. That's a very specific demographic — and the pool is shrinking. 🏒 Elite Selection — The Unanswerable Question The most honest part of the episode: nobody really knows who the best 12-year-olds are going to be. We know early maturers dominate youth hockey. We know relative age effects are real. We know the best U13 goalie in Ontario in 2010 is probably not playing professional hockey right now. And yet coaches are still evaluated on wins, organizations still select for size and physical dominance, and parents are still spending enormous amounts of money based on April tryout performances. Ben's point: we shouldn't pretend we're selecting for long-term development when most of the system is selecting for next season's results. Derek's point: winning has to matter — because without consequences there's no way to evaluate whether development is actually working. 💰 The Private vs Public Problem All three hosts coach goalies privately. All three charge for it. The families paying for private goalie coaching are not doing it to be recreational players — they're doing it to be elite. So every conversation about making hockey more accessible, more fun, and less selective runs directly into the reality of what the three hosts on this podcast actually do for a living. Ben acknowledged the tension. Nobody fully resolved it. The potential solution floated: a two-track system — a fully private high-performance stream and a government-subsidized broad participation stream. Ben's response: that's essentially what already exists. It's just that the subsidized stream is still too expensive for most families. 📊 The Last Five NHL Drafts — Jamie's Research Jamie actually did research. In the last five NHL drafts: Canada led with 39 goalies drafted, Russia second with 37, Sweden third with 13, Finland, Czech Republic, and USA all at 12. Canada is still producing the most drafted goalies. The problem isn't production — it's games played. Drafted Canadian goalies are not getting the same opportunity to play NHL minutes as their counterparts from other countries. Sweden's Dennis Hildeby leads all recently drafted goalies in games played. 📣 Parting Shots Derek — loved having Ben back. Great discussion. Very punchable face. Ben — everyone is trying to do their best. Coaches, organizations, volunteers, researchers. It's complicated and messy and that's exactly why the work matters. Jamie — genuinely had his mind changed. Supports a two-track system: private elite development and government-subsidized true development league. Wild take. Stands by it. Follow Goalie Science YouTube comments are the best way to engage — Jamie tries to respond. Share the episode if someone in your life would benefit from it. Ben will be back. There's too much left unresolved. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.
