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The Crime CafeAuthor: Debbi Mack
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Interview with Caleb Husmann – S. 12, Ep. 3
Saturday, 18 July, 2026
My guest this week on the Crime Cafe podcast is poli-sci professor and crime writer Caleb McGee Husmann. We talk a little about his academic specialty–political science–and mostly about writing and crime fiction! For a copy of the transcript, click here. Debbi (00:54): Hi everyone. My guest today is the author of several novels, including Exteriors and Interiors, Feral Chickens: A Hawaiian Comedy, and Owen O’Shea: Stay-At-Home Dad, Wannabe Detective. I love that title. Originally from Minnesota. He now lives in North Carolina with his wife Beth and their daughter, Jo. (01:18): It’s my pleasure to have with me today, C. McGee. He writes as C. McGee, but his name is Caleb Husmann . Hi, Caleb. How are you doing today? Caleb (01:28): I’m doing well, Debbi. How are you doing? Debbi (01:30): Just fine, thanks. So according to your bio, you are both professors in the department of two at a small university. Now, is it the subject that is so arcane that only two people are doing it or is the university so small that it can only afford two people in that department? Caleb (01:51): Option B. Option Be. We only got a thousand students. So it’s a small school in downtown Raleigh, North Carolina. So William Peace University. So we’re it, the Department of Two. My wife is my boss, so she’s my boss at work and at home, all the time. Debbi (02:10): I see. I see. And what subject do you teach? Caleb (02:14): We’re political scientists. So we are the entire department. We do a little bit with the criminal justice department as well and then pre-law, but political science is the main thing. Debbi (02:25): Well, it’s an interesting area to be in right now, I guess. Caleb (02:28): There’s always world events happening. That is one, I overall view it as a positive about being a political science professor is even when you’re teaching the same topics, it’s still new because you tie in current events that are happening now. And so I’m whatever almost 15 years into being a professor. I honestly think if I was teaching a subject that didn’t refresh every semester, I would kind of be exhausted of it, but I love it because sure, I’m teaching federalism again, but this time it’s California’s trying to go independent instead of Texas trying to go independent from four years earlier. It’s always something new, which is great. Debbi (03:09): Exactly. Yeah, that’s true. When did you start writing fiction? Caleb (03:16): Graduate school. So it’s funny I say that because in graduate school you’re already writing a ton. You’re writing for class and you’re writing your dissertation and all that sort of stuff. But actually it was during the summer I was interning in DC and usually I was working on the Hill for my member of the house that I worked for, but on my days off, I started to write. I guess I started writing a little bit short stories and stuff before that, but that was the first time I started to write a novel. I don’t know. I guess I was looking for, I played a lot of soccer growing up. I played soccer in college, had a couple trials with some pro teams, and then it didn’t work out. And then I was like, “Well, crap, I got to do something else.” And then I ended up going to grad school and figured out I still needed something that I could really strive for that I wasn’t sure I was going to succeed at. (04:14): I think that was part of the draw of soccer. I love playing soccer, but there was no guarantee that you were going to make it, and so you were striving for something that was kind of out of reach. And with writing novels, I mean, it’s somewhat the same as it’s a tall order and finishing it and getting it out there. And then can you get it published and that whole ordeal? It’s a monumental task, but I find those sorts of challenges draw me in for some reason. I don’t know, maybe I’m a sadist, who knows? Debbi (04:45): I think most writers have a tendency to think of themselves as masochists. We are always seeking ways to challenge ourselves and do better. Caleb (04:56): Yes. Masochist. There you go. That’s the word. Debbi (04:59): Yeah. We are sadistic to ourselves. Caleb (05:01): Yes, there you go. There you go. Thank you. Debbi (05:04): Split personality. Caleb (05:05): Better vocabulary. Debbi (05:07): We have split personalities. We have a sadistic side that picks on our masochistic side. Caleb (05:12): That sounds right. Debbi (05:14): Let’s see. Now your writing style seems very humorous. I like that about it. I love the tone of the O’Shea story. Caleb (05:27): I think it goes along with my personality. I think all of my writing is humorous. Owen O’Shea is definitely the novel that’s, the main character is the most me. The other novels, I definitely had to think through, okay, what would this character be thinking at this time? With Owen O’Shea, I was basically like, all right, what would I do? So it was the easiest to capture that voice because it was the closest to myself just in that sort of situation. But yeah, I think the goal was to find some line between the mysteries. There’s the gritty noir mysteries that tend to come out of Scandinavia and stuff like that. And then there’s the comfy, cozy, Jessica Fletcher, Murder She Wrote type mysteries. And I feel like there’s not necessarily a ton that are in between where they’re a little bit more suspenseful and the humor is a little bit more adult and adult things happen, but it’s also not dark and like The Killing or something like that. Debbi (06:36): Exactly. Yeah. It’s not grotesquely scary or whatever, but there’s just enough in there to keep you on the edge of your seat, keep you turning the pages, that kind of thing. Caleb (06:48): Exactly. So that’s the goal. Debbi (06:50): Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Let’s see. What inspired you to write comedy in general? Caleb (07:00): I think it’s always been a big part of my personality. Another professor was asking me what was my main value? And I think they wanted something profound, but I said fun. Fun was my main value. Debbi (07:14): That’s a great value. Caleb (07:15): Yeah. I mean, who doesn’t like having fun? And I think sometimes we take life too seriously. And even in more serious situations, I’ve always found humor is a great way to deal with it and handle it. And it’s just kind of a natural part of my personality so it naturally comes out in my writing. And so I’ve rolled with it from my first three novels. It’s interesting, the one I’m working on now is the first one I’ve written that’s not really comedic because it’s a horror novel, which is different. But that actually took more time because the comedy is my default way of thinking and so it comes out easier. Debbi (07:55): Exactly. Yeah. Interesting. Do you have a writing routine? Do you have a time when you write? Caleb (08:03): Yes, absolutely. If I don’t sit down and treat it like a shift, then it’s not going to happen. Debbi (08:09): Exactly. Caleb (08:10): I think there’s this romantic notion for writers, but really for all the arts of like, oh, the muse is going to strike and then I’m going to write this great thing. And that’s not really… I’m sure there are people like that. I don’t think it’s most people. I think most people, you show up and you sit and you push, and then two hours later, hopefully something came out. So that’s typically what I do, is typically I will set a timer depending on the day and how much time I have for just two or three hours. And that’s every Tuesday and Thursday because my schedule allows for it. And then Saturday and Sunday, assuming I’m not bringing my daughter to a sports practice or something like that, then I try and do two to three hours on Saturday and Sunday as well. Debbi (09:01): Yeah. Yeah. It takes diligence to do this and you really do have to devote time to it. People don’t realize how much time writers put into their work. Caleb (09:11): It takes ages, ages. And I’m always jealous of… So I just read Stephen King’s On Writing, which was one of the best books on writing. It’s up there with Bird by Bird as my favorite books on writing. Debbi (09:23): I love Bird by Bird. Caleb (09:25): It’s so great. It’s so great. But Stephen King, who it’s interesting, his novels are up and down for me. There’s ones I love. It is one of my favorite novels of all time. The Body‘s one of my favorite novellas of all time, but then there’s other ones that I DNF’ed. So I didn’t know what to expect into going on his book on writing and it was spectacular. It was so good. And he talks about that, that he’s got to sit down and do it. But also in his two-hour session, he can write whatever, 2000 words or something crazy like that. I’m like, at the end of two hours, I’m lucky if I have 500 words. His output is insane. Debbi (10:03): Everybody varies in terms of what they can produce. Caleb (10:07): Yeah. Debbi (10:08): I mean, I know people who say, oh yeah, I can write 10,000 words a day. And it’s like, well, okay, that’s you. Not everybody is like that. Caleb (10:18): I can’t even wrap my head around that. Debbi (10:20): I mean, these galactic figures that I’m just like, okay, really? And how many of those words do you end up throwing out, I wonder? Caleb (10:29): I think maybe that’s some people’s process, having talked to them, is that they just spew it all out. Debbi (10:35): They spew it out. Caleb (10:36): I think the editing really takes them ages and they’re really adding a ton more to the story afterwards. Debbi (10:43): It could be. Or taking out a lot sometimes. Caleb (10:45): Yeah, that’s definitely true. Debbi (10:47): That’s true for movies, that’s for sure. Caleb (10:50): Yeah. I think most novels benefit from being cut down a fair amount, my own included for sure. Debbi (10:55): Oh, I think there’s a lot of air in writing that can come out. I see it all the time. And you said you’re working on a horror novel now. That’s interesting. Caleb (11:08): Yeah, it’s a pretty big change for me. I’ve always read a lot of horror. I’ve always loved horror movies, but because comedy I think is my default, I didn’t go in that road. Although there’s a lot of good horror/comedy stuff. The Apple TV series that just came out, what is it? Widow’s Bay? Debbi (11:27): Oh yeah, I’ve heard of that. Caleb (11:28): Oh, if you haven’t seen it, you should watch it. I mean, I’m aiming for horror and for comedy, but it really hits both out of the horror element and the comedy element. Debbi (11:38): Interesting. Caleb (11:40): But I found I couldn’t keep the tension and the tone of the horror novel when I threw in the comedy. And so the horror novel’s definitely not as comedy-based as my other books, not even close. I mean, there’s not really any comedy in it. It’s a straight horror novel. Debbi (11:58): Yeah. Okay. Well, that sounds interesting. Be a new, interesting direction for you to go in. Caleb (12:06): Yes, it’ll be a change of pace. It’s interesting too, writing query letters to publishers and agents too, that’s so different. The other ones were like comedy, and then this one I’m writing explaining this supernatural horror that haunts them from their youth and this camp that has this unnatural draw to it. So it’s a very different, even just marketing the novel and trying to get an agent and a publisher for it is a whole different process. Debbi (12:38): So you are actively looking for an agent? Caleb (12:42): Yes. So I’ve published my first three novels with Roundfire and they’ve been good. They’ve been great, but obviously you can get an agent and get in with one of the big four, that’d be great. I mean, one of the big four publishers would be ideal. Debbi (12:56): Right. Caleb (12:57): Not going to even look at you if you don’t. Debbi (13:02): Yeah. They don’t always give you the support that you think they might. Caleb (13:09): Yeah. Debbi (13:11): I’m sure you’ve heard the stories at this point. Caleb (13:14): Yes, I have. A bunch of mid-list publishers that do great things and really work with their people. I don’t want to say that Roundfire has been… I have nothing negative to say. It’s been great. It’s just if I can get bigger, I’ll go for it. But yeah, I’ll be happy if it ends up coming out with Roundfire as well. Debbi (13:36): Well, I wish you luck with that. Caleb (13:38): Thank you. Debbi (13:39): I hope that they fully support you as they should, whoever you are with. Caleb (13:45): So fingers crossed. Debbi (13:46): Fingers crossed. Do you have a favorite author or genre that you like to read? Caleb (13:52): Oh, I read all across. Are there genres that I tend towards more? Yeah, I like horror, like I was saying a lot. I like a good thriller mystery, but I’ll read anything from a philosophical treatise to a cozy mystery. Give it all to me. I’m totally on board. As far as favorite writers go, I love Jim Thompson. So he’s an old pulp writer. He wrote Pop. 1280 and The Killer Inside Me and all those. I think he’s massively underrated. Most of his books were almost out of print. And then I actually think Stephen King, we were just talking about, mentioned once that he was his favorite crime writer and now all of his books are back in print, which shows you the power of Stephen King. (14:38): And that’s great. He deserves it because he’s amazing. So Jim Thompson is definitely up there. But I also like comedy stuff like Nick Hornby, who wrote High Fidelity and About a Boy and all that sort of stuff. And then I’m trying to think. I wasn’t really a reader until I was about 17. And then almost every one of my generation, I read the Harry Potter novels and got hooked on reading. And so JK Rowling will always have a special place because of the fact that she got me to be a reader and then a writer because I wouldn’t be a writer without being a reader for sure. Debbi (15:15): That’s right. Yeah. Caleb (15:17): And so Patricia Highsmith, I love her. All the Ripley books are great. Yeah. And then let’s see. And then for being out there and really different, Danielewski who wrote House of Leaves, he just came out with a new one called Tom’s Crossing that is also awesome. He is unlike any other author that has ever existed. I don’t know. I don’t want to overstate it, but I feel like he reinvented the novel. Debbi (15:45): Interesting. Caleb (15:46): Pretty great. Debbi (15:46): Well, I’ll have to check that guy out. Caleb (15:48): Oh yeah. House of Leaves is the first one you got to go to. Debbi (15:51): House of Leaves. Caleb (15:52): House of Leaves. You will have never read anything like it. I can guarantee you that. Debbi (15:57): That’s interesting. Wow. Because one of my favorite writers did something really remarkable with a private eye novel. I think it was Jonathan Franzen [With apologies to Jonathan Lethem], I think, maybe who did Gun with Occasional Music. I’m trying to remember if he was the one who did Gun with Occasional Music because I love that book so much. It has weird dystopian sci-fi and a private eye involved in investigating a case with these bizarre creatures just doing business with human beings, ordinary human beings. I can’t remember what they were like, but they were really bizarre creatures in some way. These fantastic creatures that he can’t quite grasp. It’s like, I don’t like these people, whatever they are. And then the ending is just so clever. It was like, oh my God. It kind of blew my mind. Caleb (17:07): Brilliant. Debbi (17:07): And the title makes sense, but you have to read the story for it to make sense. It has to do with weapons and music, gun with occasional music. Caleb (17:19): Oh, that’s pretty good. Debbi (17:21): Weapons that play songs. It’s all very strange. I’m having a hard time remembering the details because it’s been a while since I’ve read it, but it was really a remarkable book. But now I have to read House of Leaves. Caleb (17:35): You won’t be disappointed. Debbi (17:36): And Tom’s Crossing and the rest of this guy’s stuff. Caleb (17:39): Yeah. House of Leaves is definitely the one I would start with. But Tom’s Crossing, which is the most recent one, is my second favorite. So yeah, Danielewski’s amazing. Franzen’s amazing. I think the thing that gets me about Franzen is, so I’ve read Freedom and The Corrections and maybe one or two more, but those are the two that stick in my head. And I don’t like any of his characters. I loathe all of his characters, but I still love the book, which that’s pretty remarkable. If you can write a novel in which you’re kind of rooting against every single character in both freedom and the corrections and still be turning the pages at a crazy pace, that’s amazing. He is so talented to be able to pull that off. Debbi (18:28): When you can get people to relate to unlikeable people because they have something about them that makes you like them, that’s really pulling off a remarkable thing I think. Yeah. Caleb (18:40): It is. I totally agree with that. Debbi (18:42): And you see it a lot. You see it a lot on television. I mean, Tony Soprano does terrible things, but we’re all on his side on various issues. Caleb (18:52): Yeah, especially with Breaking Bad and all the anti-heroes. Debbi (18:56): Breaking Bad? Better Call Saul. Caleb (19:00): Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Better Call Saul. Yeah. I think what Franzen does that truly blows my mind is that they’re much more ordinary, nasty people. They’re just kind of the crappy people that you know as opposed to with Breaking Bad and The Sopranos, which I agree, both those are amazing and Better Call Saul. They’re – Debbi (19:24): Bigger forces. Caleb (19:25): The crime world and there’s larger forces at play and it’s somewhat escapist versus when I’m reading Freedom, Freedom takes place in Minnesota near where I grew up, and it’s just very relatable. And the people’s bad qualities are bad qualities that you know in people. I don’t know any mobsters, but I know people like the people in Freedom and they’re crappy in the same way that people are crappy in Freedom. And he just captures it though in a way that … I can’t even put words to it. Debbi (19:56): Yeah, I know what you’re saying. Yeah. Ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances, things like that, are interesting to capture. Or just the ordinary conflicts that people endure in daily life sometimes make good material. Caleb (20:15): Absolutely. Debbi (20:16): Strangely enough. What advice would you give to anyone who’s interested in writing for a living? Caleb (20:24): I mean, I don’t know that this is very profound, but just do it. So many people just talk about doing these things and they don’t just sit down and do it. And you’re going to realize it’s not as glamorous. It’s not catching the muse like you imagine it to be. But in many ways that makes it more rewarding.You sit down and grind and at the end of a lot of hours of work, you have a novel. And so I’ve talked to a ton of people who’d say, “I would love to write a novel,” or other big life things, but they just never actually do it. (21:03): Just actually take that first step and then take the next and the next and keep the momentum going, don’t slow down. And even when you get stuck, keep on grinding away. You asked about my writing routine. I mean, I normally try and write two hours, at least three to four days a week, but sometimes that week will go great and I’ll produce a few thousand words, but I know that there have been many weeks where I turned around and deleted everything I wrote that week or I was trying to grind and nothing would come and by the end of the week I had 200 words. So you just got to push through those moments. And honestly, I don’t think that they go away unless you sit down and grind through them. At least they don’t for me. You got to power through. Debbi (21:53): Yeah. I think it was, I’m trying to remember the name of the author who said, inspiration doesn’t come to him. He has to hunt it down with a club. Caleb (22:05): Yeah, that’s good. I like that. Debbi (22:07): It was Jack something. Somebody famous that I’m blanking out on. Caleb (22:13): Yeah. Debbi (22:14): I hate that. Caleb (22:15): Hunting it down with a club sounds like Jack London, right? Debbi (22:17): Jack London, that’s it. That’s the one. Yeah, there goes the mind. Oh well. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we finish up? By the way, do you use an outline when you write? Caleb (22:33): No, that’s a great question. Yes-ish, but I don’t follow it hard and fast. But I do get gigantic artist pads, the biggest one you can get at the art store. You’re not getting this puppy at Target. You got to go to the specialized art store to get this gigantic one. And then I’ll outline the whole thing on that sheet of paper. But also I recognize that as I go, sometimes the characters develop in ways you’re not expecting. Sometimes the plot develops in ways you’re not expecting. So do I follow the outline broadly? Yes. But if it feels like the story should head in a different direction, I don’t hesitate to change direction with it and then – Debbi (23:15): Absolutely. Caleb (23:16): When I need to. Debbi (23:17): It’s really like just having a little roadmap and then you realize, oh, I don’t really want to end up there. I want to end up here instead. Caleb (23:24): That’s exactly right. Yeah. Debbi (23:27): Yeah. Personally, I think it’s a great way of keeping yourself going if you know that there’s another place that you have to get to on that outline. Caleb (23:35): Yes. And I think when you sit down at the beginning of your two hours that you’re going to write that day, it’s less daunting if you have a general idea of where you’re headed as opposed to, “All right, I’m going to sit down and write for two hours today, but I have no freaking idea where I’m going to go. ” It’s much more intimidating. Debbi (23:54): It’s much more intimidating. Caleb (23:55): Yeah. Debbi (23:56): If you have some idea, you can always play around with that idea and maybe go in a slightly different direction or not, depending. It’s going to depend on where the characters take you. Caleb (24:07): That’s right. And then if it’s an outline, if I’m out on a run or playing golf or I’m somewhere off on my own and my mind is kind of wandering, I can outline the story in my head. I can’t write a scene in my head, but I can outline where the story’s going in my head. So it’s a good way to do some work on my writing even when I’m not sitting down and doing my two hours of grinding it out. Debbi (24:35): Yeah, I’ve noticed that if I’m really stuck on something, sometimes if I walk or even just take a shower, something where I’m doing something entirely different, it’ll just come to me. Did you think about doing this? Oh, no. Caleb (24:50): That is so true. Debbi (24:51): Sometimes it’ll just come to you, a solution of some sort that you can try out. Caleb (24:58): It’s amazing how many breakthroughs you have while you’re in the shower washing your hair and all of sudden it’s like, oh my God. Debbi (25:03): I know. What is it about showers? What is it about that kind of thing? I don’t know. It’s an interesting thing. Well, I want to thank you for talking with us today, Caleb. I really appreciate it. Thank Caleb (25:17): Thank you so much for having me, Debbi. So I appreciate it. Debbi (25:19): I was happy to have you on. So thank you so much and stick around. We’ll do a bonus episode for Patreon supporters. Caleb (25:28): That sounds wonderful. Awesome. Debbi (25:29): Excellent. Excellent. All right then. Well, everybody, thank you for listening. I want to thank everybody who supports me on Patreon and Substack. I would like to also request that if you could, please leave a review for the podcast if you enjoyed it because they do help us. Until next time when I have M M DeLuca on as my guest, I’d like you to wish you all a good two weeks and take care. Happy reading and I’ll be seeing you.
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