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The Crime CafeAuthor: Debbi Mack
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Interview with James Polkinghorn – S. 11, Ep. 12
Saturday, 22 November, 2025
My guest interview this week on the Crime Cafe podcast is with semi-retired attorney and crime writer, James Polkinghorn. Check out our discussion of Liquid Shades of Blue. And a little about the practice of law. You can download a copy of the transcript here! Debbi (00:54): Hi everyone. My guest today is semi-retired litigator and trial. He was a semi-retired litigator and trial attorney, is a semi-retired litigator and trial attorney. One of those tenses. And while he was based in Miami and Fort Lauderdale for 39 years, he handled some very interesting, a variety of cases of highly complex matters sometimes. He is originally from Pittsburgh, which fascinates me because I lived in Monroeville for a while. You probably know where that is. Jim (01:31): Went to the Monroeville Mall. Debbi (01:32): Oh, yeah. I remember the Monroeville Mall. It was a big deal when I was there. It was new or something, but he moved to Florida when he was 14 with his family, of course, and he now lives in Key West and is working on a follow-up, as I recall, reading from another interview on your novel, Liquid Shades of Blue. Am I correct? Jim (01:56): That’s right, yep. Debbi (01:57): Excellent. Very good. It is my pleasure to introduce the author James Polkinghorn. Hi Jim. How are you doing? Jim (02:05): I’m doing great. How are you? Debbi? Debbi (02:07): Oh, I’m hanging in there. I’m busy. Busy, but I’m hanging in there and glad to hear you’re doing well. I like your shirt. It goes really well with, even though you’re not in Key West at the moment, you’ve brought a little of that with you. Jim (02:21): Yeah, believe it or not, this was work attire for me for probably the last 15 years of my career. I sort of stopped wearing suits in the office if I could avoid it. It worked out for me. Debbi (02:36): Excellent. That is an excellent choice there. Who needs suits? I’m always happy to meet another lawyer turned crime fiction writer. What was it that made you turn to crime fiction as a way of expressing your stories? Jim (02:54): Well, I’ll tell you, Debbi, for me, it all really goes back to college, when I sort of dabbled with the idea of becoming a writer. I took the usual classes. I was an English joint major. I also majored in political science. But what really happened was my family circumstances at the time were terrible, and I made a conscious decision that I didn’t want to be poor anymore. (03:32): And so for me, the quickest way to an actual paycheck that was substantial was by going to law school. And so I made that conscious decision to go to law school, and I started that career and God knows it all turned out just fine. I had a long and good career, made money, did all that, and throughout all of that, I was thinking to myself, I always had this idea for a novel in my head, and I never wrote it. And I went on 40 years and finally it was I was about to turn 60 and I was thinking about retiring. I’d had the idea of retiring by age 60, and I was thinking to myself, if you don’t write this novel, if you don’t do it, you’re never going to do it. If you don’t do it now, now’s the time. And so that’s what I did. So I retired and the first thing I did upon retiring was write this book. And it was fairly well received and I enjoyed the process, all of that. And so after it came out and I started writing another one, and so I’ve done that and that’ll be out next year. Debbi (05:01): Excellent. Jim (05:04): So anyway, that’s how it all started. Debbi (05:07): Wow, very interesting. You still are doing the legal work? Jim (05:13): Well, I have a relationship with my law firm. I don’t actively practice anymore, but believe it or not, this is a national law firm. We’ve got, actually, it’s an international law firm now. We’ve got 35 offices all over the place, and I am now the ethics partner for the whole firm. And so I handle any ethical issue, any lawyer anywhere has, they will call me and we’ll work it out one way or another, conflicts, issues that arise and other things. If they’re accused of unethical behavior in a given case, they’ll call me and we’ll figure out what to do. Debbi (05:57): This is fascinating. Jim (05:59): Yeah. Well, I mean, it is a function. Every law firm of our size has somebody like that. (06:04): So anyway, so that’s what I, since I retired, that’s the role I’ve taken on. And plus I also do some training. I do litigation training, trial trainings, things like that. Mostly in the Fort Lauderdale office, but also elsewhere. But the ethics thing, that’s really the primary relationship that I have with the firm now. Debbi (06:29): Well, that’s very interesting. Thank you for sharing that. That might be a subject worth exploring, a whole nother podcast maybe because I feel like people don’t know enough about the law and the way lawyers work, Jim (06:45): And also the ethical challenges that lawyers face really almost every day when they’re dealing with clients, the pressure clients are putting on you. Particularly, I was a defense lawyer. The pressure you experience from clients asking you to do various things and the expectations that clients have for you, it can force you to make some tough decisions. And so I’m there to sort of guide lawyers when they’re faced with those sorts of conundrums. Debbi (07:16): Well, that’s a good position to be in. It’s good that somebody, they’re doing that. Tell us a little about Liquid Shades of Blue. Your ex-lawyer protagonist turned bar keep in Key West. So this book is clearly not about going to court and being Perry Mason. Jim (07:36): No, no. I mean, there’s a little bit of legal stuff in there. There’s a case that he has, but it’s really not about that. The book is really about Jack’s quest for redemption and his own desire to regain the self-respect that he lost when he made a fateful decision working for his father, who was a big time plaintiff’s lawyer in Miami. He made a decision after he was accused of wrongdoing. Basically, it was a scheme of double billing in a case that actually was perpetrated by his father. And the father made Jack take the fall for it, and rather than stand up for himself, Jack swallowed it. His father wrote him a big check. He was suspended from the practice of law for six months, and during that six months he left and he went to Miami and he bought this bar. And so then once his suspension was up, he thought about going back to Miami but didn’t, stayed in Key West, ran the bar, and then things happen. And in this case, the big thing that happens is his mother dies of an apparent suicide and his father calls him and basically orders him back to Miami to sort things out. And that’s where it really takes off. Debbi (09:16): Yeah. Now, your protagonist also has kind of a drinking problem, right? Jim (09:24): Well, he did. His mother, I don’t know if these things are inherited or not, maybe they are, but his mother had an issue with alcohol and drugs going back to her childhood, and he worries that that’s him. But really, he was one of these guys that, because he was an athlete also, he ran track in college and was also a good football player in high school and all that. He always stayed in a certain shape. And so that always acted as a governor on his worst instincts. And so he always kept his drinking under control, but when some of these bad things happened, he would find himself drinking a little more than he should. And that’s sort of where he was on that fateful morning when his father called him and told him his mother was dead. Debbi (10:20): Yeah. Yeah. I noticed in your excerpt that you mentioned him waking up kind of groggy. Some woman is next to him. Jim (10:31): Right. Exactly. Exactly. Debbi (10:33): Discombobulated to say the least. Jim (10:34): Right. It was a shocking morning for sure. Debbi (10:38): I was wondering if that was him as him or kind of a product of where he is, kind of the Key West lifestyle. Jim (10:51): Well, I think, I don’t say this explicitly in the book, but I believe that that’s true. And I mean, having lived in Key West for a long time, I know how that goes. And people do go there with the idea of, I can keep a handle on this. And they just get caught up in the lifestyle and it churns some people out, so he could have fallen into that trap. But the events of this book actually save him from that. And that’s sort of the redemption he was looking for. And he ultimately, I think, finds it. Debbi (11:30): Just out of curiosity, it’s been a while since I’ve read the book. What era, when is this taking place? Is it contemporary? Jim (11:38): It’s fairly current. It would’ve been maybe seven years ago, something like that is what the current time would’ve been. Maybe a little newer than that. Debbi (11:48): Yeah. Yeah. I was just wondering because a lot of what goes on in Florida is affected by so many things through the decades. I wasn’t quite sure. Jim (11:59): Yeah. You would say that this was just before COVID is really what this was, because COVID isn’t mentioned. Debbi (12:08): Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Before all that became a concern. Let’s see. How much do you weave in things about the law and how far in the background do you go with that, or how much do you bring them out? Jim (12:25): Well, the legal part of it is not particularly important except to explain the way Jack thinks about things. As you well know, one thing a legal education does is it teaches you how to think analytically. That’s really like the cornerstone of a legal education is that ability and the development of it. So he has that, and also his father does. There is a pretty good, I think, description of the father’s legal ability in the book. And we all know lawyers like him who are essentially amoral, who can take any position, argue it effectively, and persuade juries. And that’s what his father did on the plaintiff’s side. And he became very successful, very wealthy, advertises on TV, does all that. And that was his father. Now, his father was also an ex-Army intelligence officer who had spent time in Iraq during the first Iraq war. And so he has some on the ground experience of life that is extralegal. And so he kind of brings that back to his family as well. Debbi (13:51): That’s quite a situation. How would you describe your writing to somebody who’s never read your books? Is it like hardboiled mystery or psychological thriller? Jim (14:02): Well, okay, it’s an interesting question because I am not a hundred percent sure how I would describe it, because while there is a mystery afoot, there is a question here of what exactly happened to Jack’s mother? And if it wasn’t a suicide, what was it and how did it happen? All of that is there. But for me, really, the story is about Jack and his search for himself, which he embarks upon in the context of trying to figure out what the hell happened to his mother. And that’s the path he goes down and he faces danger. He faces up to danger and experiences several important things along the way that sort of cause him to realize what he’s all about, what his actual capabilities are. Debbi (15:06): Yeah. Jim (15:07): Because he grew up as a rich kid. His father was hard on him, and his mother was too, but he and his brother grew up in a privileged environment, and it took some things, including his brother’s death to slap him in the face and realize that life isn’t easy and there’s a lot of horror out there. And he came to grips with that, and then through the course of this book, he finds his way. Debbi (15:46): Excellent. Good. What kind of writing schedule do you keep? Jim (15:54): When I’m writing, I am one of those people, and I got this from Ernest Hemingway, who was sort of my idol as a writer, but he was the type that would write for three or four hours max. And that’s me. And I have come to conclude that if I write for longer than that, I’m no longer effective. I’m not as crisp. My thing in sort of a Hemingway, an homage to Hemingway, I like to think of myself as a straightforward, clear writer. And so I start to lose that if I stay too long. So that’s what I do. And so normally I do it in the early afternoon. In the morning, I do various things. Whatever I have to do for the law firm I do. And then I’ll start writing in the early afternoon, and then when I’m done, I’ll go to the gym, workout, come home, relax, and then do it again the next day. Debbi (17:06): Sounds like a nice balanced approach. I like that. Jim (17:10): It works. It works for me. Debbi (17:11): Exactly, exactly. Got to do what works for you. Given the fact that there’s so much of kind of your background in the book, so to speak, in terms of place, being a lawyer, how much research, if any, do you do? Jim (17:31): Well. Debbi (17:33): There’s got to be something. Jim (17:34): Yeah, the legal stuff that comes right out of my head. The Key West stuff. I know all of that too, but there’s some Miami stuff there that I had to, I lived in Miami for 10 years early in my career also, so I’m very familiar with the city. But there are a few things there I had to research, including actually getting on the ground and looking at addresses and layouts of parking lots and stuff like that. So I did all that. And the other significant thing that I researched was Jack’s father’s, the Duke, his military background and what he did in the Army. That required, I didn’t know anything about that, and I just made that up. And so then I had to go back and figure out what all that meant and then create the background story. Debbi (18:32): I hear that. I hear that. Believe me. What do TV and movies get consistently and annoyingly wrong about lawyers that you see that make you want to throw something at the TV? Jim (18:51): Well, the thing that drives me crazy, and I mean crazy, and my wife will acknowledge this is when they, a case will come in the door at the law firm and they’re in trial like two weeks later. That time lapse drives me crazy. And then once they are in the trial, the inability of the writers to understand the rules of evidence and how this actually works in a trial also makes me crazy. And the things that lawyers in the TV show, the questions they’re able to ask without objection, that’s all completely. Debbi (19:37): And the speeches, they just stand there and make a speech. Jim (19:40): And the long speeches, yeah, the lawyer will just turn around in the courtroom and start addressing the jury without a question. Those sorts of things are just ridiculous. Debbi (19:53): I know, right? Jim (19:54): So yeah. So there’s all of that. As long as it works for them, good for them, good for the ratings. Debbi (20:02): Somebody out there likes this stuff. I don’t know. They aren’t lawyers, I’ll tell you that. Jim (20:08): Well, some of those shows I actually left. I’ll tell you a show that actually got the legal thing right was LA Law. Do you remember that show? Debbi (20:18): Yes. Yes. I do remember that. Jim (20:19): I mean, it wasn’t so much the courtroom stuff. It was the law firm stuff that was really well done. The politics of being in a law firm were really well done in that show. Debbi (20:29): I know. I found out the hard way. Jim (20:33): Well, there you go. Debbi (20:36): Oh boy, that’s funny. I’m going to have to remember that for later when we do our bonus episode. It’s a short thing I do for Patreon supporters. What advice would you give to anyone who’s interested in a writing career? Jim (20:55): Commitment? You have to be committed to it. I wasn’t, as I said, when I was in college and I had a professor, a creative writing professor, who thought I had ability, but recognized right away that I wasn’t serious then and I wasn’t, because as I said, I had my eye on making some money. And that professor saw right through me at the time, and I remember it like it was yesterday. It was a guy named Harry Cruz, who was a very good author himself. He had a number of really interesting southern gothic novels. But he was a significant influence on me because I realized you can’t do this unless you’re committed. And it took a long time. It took me 40 years to gain the commitment to actually sit down and write this book. And so I respect writers who come right out of college knowing exactly what they want to do, work as waiters or whatever else, and write. I have great respect for that. I just couldn’t do it. It wasn’t me at the time. But I think finding that commitment is the key, really. And also another thing is finding your own voice. A lot of people try to emulate somebody else, and that doesn’t work either. And I find when I’m reading something that someone has written, I can tell if it’s authentic or not, if this is real to the writer. And so I think that’s another thing is finding your own voice and expressing that. Debbi (22:43): Yes, absolutely. That’s great advice. Is there anything you’d like to add before we finish up? Jim (22:52): Not really. I do appreciate the opportunity to speak with you today, Debbi. It was a pleasure. It was a pleasure. Debbi (22:59): Well, the pleasure was mutual because this has been great fun. Thank you for being on with us today. Jim (23:06): Sure thing. Debbi (23:06): Spending time and giving advice. As we know, time and advice are a lawyer’s stock in trade. Jim (23:15): You’re so right. Debbi (23:17): So I am very happy that you were able to be here today. This is also why AI will never replace lawyers, I hope. Jim (23:28): Well, I’ll tell you, I happen to know just from my own, what’s going on in my own law firm, AI, it can do research. That’s a real problem, and it can write briefs. Debbi (23:42): But you’d have to double check everything to make sure it wasn’t hallucinating. Jim (23:45): You do. That’s all true. That’s all true. Everything you said is true. That’s going to work itself out. But it’s here. It is here. And it’s going to become harder for law firms to hire young associates and train them on legal research and writing because they don’t need that anymore. Or they won’t in the near future because AI will do it for them. And so there’s going to be a weird period of, I’d say the next 10 years, you’re going to see all this stuff shake out, and it’s going to create a real revolution, I think, in the legal profession. I really do believe that. Debbi (24:22): Hopefully it’s a revolution for good. Jim (24:25): Yeah. I don’t necessarily advocate somebody starting college like tomorrow thinking they’re going to go to law school and then starting a legal career. I think the legal career that person would start seven years from now is going to look a lot different than it does today. Now, the people that you can’t get rid of are the trial lawyers. AI can’t go into court and try a case and it can’t argue emotion. It can’t do any of that. So there’s always going to be a role. But all of that background stuff, that’s trouble. That’s where the trouble is. Debbi (25:03): Very interesting. I’ve been kind of watching from the sidelines, so to speak, the legal profession grapple with this whole technology business in general. I noticed they’re kind of catching up with what tweets were long after I knew all about Twitter. And how tweets could be used to market their services. Where have you guys been? Oh, I forgot. It’s the legal profession. It moves very, very slowly. Jim (25:37): It’s methodical. Yeah. Debbi (25:38): But it is methodical. Yeah. That goes along with the way lawyers think, which is methodically. Anyway, I just want to thank you again, James. Jim. Jim. Jim (25:55): Yeah. Thank you, Debbi. Debbi (25:56): For sure. For sure. I want to thank all my listeners and my Patreon supporters. I couldn’t do this without you guys. If you haven’t done so, please check out my Patreon page. The link is in the show notes. Until next time, when my guest will be Phillip Strang. Take care and happy reading. I shall be seeing you. ***** Be sure to check out our Patreon page, for ad-free episodes, bonus episodes, excerpts from my work, as well as updates on my latest project, my short film “Absolution”, which is currently in post-production (which, BTW, has become my latest unpaid side gig). 🙂
