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The Crime CafeAuthor: Debbi Mack
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Interview with M.M. DeLuca – S. 12, Ep. 5
Saturday, 8 August, 2026
My guest this week on the Crime Cafe podcast is crime writer and screenwriter M.M. DeLuca. Among other things, we discussed what it was like for her to study with a Pulitzer Prize winning writer. For a copy of the transcript, click here. Debbi (00:54): Hi everybody. Today my guest is the author of five critically acclaimed suspense novels, including her latest novel, The Divorce Party. Originally from Durham City, England, after studying at the University of London Goldsmiths College, she moved to Winnipeg, Canada, where she worked as an English literature teacher, then as a freelance writer. (01:20): It’s my great pleasure to have with me Marjorie DeLuca, who writes under the name MM DeLuca. Hey Marjorie, how are you doing today? Let me see if I can get you in view. There you go. Awesome. Marjorie (01:35): It’s great to be here. Lovely to talk to you. Debbi (01:38): Well, I’m very pleased to have you on. It says, oh, how are things in Manitoba, anyway? How are things in Winnipeg? Marjorie (01:48): Hot and humid. Debbi (01:50): Hot and humid. Marjorie (01:51): Hot, humid, windy with periods of rain. Debbi (01:54): Oh my, that sounds like us. Marjorie (01:57): It’s greener. Greener than usual. Debbi (02:00): Well, there you go. There’s that. Marjorie (02:01): Yeah. Yeah. Debbi (02:03): Let’s see. Now in your bio, it says that you studied advanced creative writing with Pulitzer Prize winner Dr. Carol Shields. What was it like to study such a subject with a Pulitzer Prize winner? Marjorie (02:17): It was like meeting a rock star. It really was. We were her final class before she retired, and we were all sitting there that day in awe because she just won the Pulitzer Prize. We were sitting there just waiting for her to come in, and she slipped through the door. She was this very petite, quiet lady, and she was just amazing. She had a charisma about her, and she wasn’t just your teacher. She was a friend, a mentor, and she loved to meet with us outside of class and we’d all go for lunches and she’d say, “Tell me the gossip. Come on.” And she was just a wonderful teacher. And actually, a lot of the things that we did in class, I used as an English teacher, but she had a profound influence on my career. It was an amazing one year that we spent with her. (03:22): And after that, she moved away to the coast, to BC, and sadly passed away some years after that. But yeah, it was a fabulous experience. Debbi (03:36): Was this during, I assume these are graduate studies? Marjorie (03:43): Yes, it was, but you had to send in a piece of work or several pieces, and she selected the participants. So it was a one-year, just once a week course. Yeah. Debbi (04:00): Sounds very much like a fellowship or something like that. Marjorie (04:04): Yeah. Well, she was a professor at the University of Manitoba for many years. And when she won the Pulitzer Prize, I think she was the only female professor at the time. Debbi (04:15): Oh my goodness. Marjorie (04:16): The other male colleagues were a bit miffed, I think. Debbi (04:20): Oh, dear. Marjorie (04:22): She won the prize. But anyway, no, maybe that’s not fair, but she had been there quite a while as a teacher, a professor. Debbi (04:34): Well, that’s just extraordinary that you had that opportunity. That’s fabulous. Marjorie (04:38): Yes. Debbi (04:41): What genre would you say your writing falls into? Marjorie (04:45): I’m all over the place, really. I get bored in one genre. I started off in sci-fi, young adult sci-fi when I was teaching grades 10 to 12. And around that time, The Hunger Games came out and the kids just loved it, even reluctant readers. So as I was reading them, I thought, “I could write something like this.” And so that’s when I really started getting serious about putting something together. (05:18):And I wrote a trilogy called The Forevers. Here’s the cover of it. I couldn’t find a publisher, so I self-published the trilogy and actually did pretty well. And later on, I adapted it into a series, and I actually got shortlisted for a Netflix call for submissions with my pilot and pitch, but they didn’t pick it up, but I’m still hoping that someone will. So I started off with that. Then you can see I’m all over the place. (05:57): Then I went into historical fiction and wrote this family saga called The Pittman’s Daughter. And that’s based on my mother’s reminiscences as growing up in a culinary town in Durham, near Durham in the northeast of England. She was a Pittman’s daughter, a coal miner’s daughter. I couldn’t get that published by a publisher, so I self-published it. And then I really love historical fiction. The first book I got published was this, The Savage Instinct, which is fact meets fiction set against the trial of real life serial poisoner, Mary Ann Cotton. So that’s when I started getting into suspense. I wrote another suspense book called Lilah, and then began a string of contemporary suspense. So I had The Perfect Family Man, which was a big bestseller, The Secret Sister, The Night Side, which is sort of dark paranormal suspense. And then The Divorce Party, which is. I sort of got tired of being in the dark side after The Savage Instinct and The Night Side. (07:32): I thought, I think I need something light. So I came up with The Divorce Party, which is exactly what it says. Friends from university who were invited by their frenemy, I guess, to her divorce party in Las Vegas. I had a lot of fun writing that. Debbi (07:56): I was going to say, that sounds very acerbic wit stuff. Marjorie (08:02): Oh, it was such fun writing it and researching it was so funny. There’s a whole industry devoted to divorce parties Debbi (08:12): Oh, my gosh. Marjorie (08:12): In Las Vegas. Debbi (08:13): Oh, I can imagine. Marjorie (08:14): I had no idea. Debbi (08:15): I didn’t know. I don’t know anything about it, but I can imagine, wow. Marjorie (08:20): No, I didn’t. I knew there’s the marriage thing. Well, there’s the whole marriage thing with the chapels and all of that. Note: There’s divorce cocktails. There’s special divorce playlists. There’s divorce party games. It’s incredible. Debbi (08:38): Divorce party industry. Wow, that’s fantastic. Marjorie (08:42): I know. Debbi (08:42): Fantastic stuff. Places you go when you start looking. Marjorie (08:47): I know. And it’s actually not as depressing as you’d think because a lot of these divorce parties are looking at things as a fresh start, a way to reinvent yourself. Unfortunately, in my book, it’s not as nice as that. Debbi (09:06): They’re reinventing themselves in bad ways perhaps. Marjorie (09:09): Yes. They’re actually trying to reinvent themselves, but the past keeps popping up like a corpse in a swimming pool. Debbi (09:18): That’s right. Marjorie (09:20): And then my latest one is another one of these destination thrillers, and that’s set in Mexico in a big villa at a 60th wedding anniversary. Debbi (09:34): Deadly Diamonds. Marjorie (09:36): Yeah. Actually, the book is still at the copy editing phase, and the publisher hasn’t done the cover release yet. Debbi (09:52): Yeah. Marjorie (09:53): Yeah. So it’s set in Mexico during the weekend of Día de Los Muertos. And that’s why I’m wearing a T-shirt with a – Debbi (10:05): Nice. Marjorie (10:07): Yeah. Debbi (10:08): Very nice. Marjorie (10:10): So I’m all over the genres. I jump it back and forth. Debbi (10:16): That’s pretty impressive. I see you’ve done a combination of self-publishing and publishing through presses. Is that correct? Marjorie (10:23): Yes. Yeah. Debbi (10:26): But you started with self-publishing? Marjorie (10:28): Yeah, I started with self-publishing. Debbi (10:31): And when was that? Marjorie (10:34): That was probably around 2013. The market was way less crowded. When I started self-publishing, it was possible to sell a decent number of books. So The Pittman’s Daughter and The Forevers trilogy did quite well. Nowadays, I’m not so sure. I think it’s really, really competitive and expensive to market. Debbi (11:04): I know. Believe me, I know. Marjorie (11:07): Oh, yes? You’ve self-published? Debbi (11:09): I’m right in there. Yeah, I’m self-published. Yeah. Marjorie (11:12): Yes. Debbi (11:12): I am totally self-published at this point. Marjorie (11:16): Yeah, and it takes a lot of your time. Debbi (11:18): With a few exceptions. Oh, yeah, it does. It takes a lot of time. The thing is that I’m also involved in screenwriting, so there’s a lot of time that gets devoted. You do screenwriting? Marjorie (11:32): Yes. Debbi (11:33): Excellent. Most excellent. Good to know. How did you get into screenwriting? Marjorie (11:41): My daughter is a costume designer for film, and one of her earlier projects, she was involved in some Hallmark movies, and I saw some of these. I can write one of those. So I co-wrote a Hallmark feature with a friend of hers who’s involved in the movies as well. It never got anywhere. Then I adapted The Forevers and did that pitch and the pilot episode and got a lot of encouragement from the Netflix executive who really loved it. But unfortunately, there’s that phrase, “We love it, but we’re not going to go with this.” Debbi (12:26): Yes. Getting the green light is hard. Marjorie (12:29): I know. Debbi (12:30): It’s become harder. Marjorie (12:32): Yes. It’s more difficult than even getting a book published, I think. And then I met up with another friend of hers who’s a production designer, and he wanted someone to co-write an action thriller with him. So we co-wrote an action thriller, which is actually going through some early stages of development, so I’m hopeful. Debbi (12:57): That’s great. Marjorie (12:58): Yeah. And I’ve had some interest in The Divorce Party, of people interested in adapting it, so we’ll see. Debbi (13:06): Wonderful. Marjorie (13:06): You never know until the green light comes on. Debbi (13:12): Exactly. Marjorie (13:14): It’s in suspension. Debbi (13:15): It’s all very sketchy until it actually happens. Marjorie (13:18): Yeah. Debbi (13:20): And even if it’s happening, it might get shut down. You never know. Marjorie (13:24): I know. I know. But screenwriting does help with novel writing. Debbi (13:29): It does. You’re absolutely right about that. Marjorie (13:32): Yes. Debbi (13:33): I learned that fast. How do you decide which story you want to tell? Marjorie (13:46): It’s interesting because it takes me a long time. I’ve usually got two or three projects going at the same time that come to me through either. The inspiration either comes from a memory, an image that was catchy to me, something that I saw in the news maybe, or somebody that I met that’s kind of sparked an idea. So a project that I’m working on right now that might be picked up by a publisher, it was suggested to me by a childhood image of when I was a kid. We lived in a house just outside of Durham City. And I remember one day there was a terrible accident outside the front of the house, a car accident. And I remember we had a little kind of bank that I could look out onto the road from. And I remember seeing a pair of red child’s shoes and this red shoes, red shoes thing stuck in my mind forever. (15:05): And just that image sets up a whole set of different ideas for me. And it takes me a while to explore the ideas before I start writing in, because I’ve done it the opposite where I’ve gone full tilt on an idea that’s not fully developed. And then you’re like, okay, now what? Debbi (15:29): Exactly. Marjorie (15:30): So then I’ve got another project, which is a sci-fi one, which that came to me when I thought about deserted shopping malls. We went for a visit down to Grand Forks, which is just south of us in North Dakota. And the mall, which used to be busy in the ’90s, was a dead zone. It was the weirdest place I’ve ever stepped into. The food court was empty. There were no stores. It was a ghost town. And then I started thinking, wow, what if these in the future were places that people lived? And what if the grid failed basically, and people were forced to live in these malls, but the wealthy people lived in biospheres? I came up with an idea there were three classes of people, the wealthy people living in the biospheres, the mid-range people living in the malls and the old Costco warehouses, and then the feral people living wild, (16:49): And came up with this story about the wealthy people wanting to move off the planet basically. And it’s a whole complicated story, but that idea was just suggested by the mall. So I’ve got all of these projects going, and I kind of dot from one to the other. And my rule is if it doesn’t get me in the gut, if I don’t feel an emotional connection after writing it for a while, I put it aside. For me, it has to touch the emotions somewhere. And that’s how I decide. I kind of have the two or three projects. I write a bit here and a bit there. But if it hasn’t got some emotional resonance, then I put it aside for a while until I can come up with something better. Debbi (17:49): I know the feeling because, I think it must be a screenwriter thing because I have multiple screenplays that I’ve started. Ideas that I really want to develop and take somewhere. Marjorie (18:02): Yeah. Yeah, I know. Debbi (18:04): It’s always about which one do I really connect with the most? Marjorie (18:09): Yes, I know. I mean, I’m sure writers have so many ideas in their draw when they’re sitting on their laptop that could be great stories. I’ve got lots of thoughts. Debbi (18:22): Exactly. Yeah. Marjorie (18:23): But it takes a really fully formed idea to go to the end of a novel. Debbi (18:29): Exactly. Or a feature film. Marjorie (18:32): Yes. Debbi (18:33): I was going to say that you must be an outliner at heart. Marjorie (18:38): No, I’m not actually. That’s why screenwriting was so good for me. It forced me to outline things. Yeah. So I’m a kind of semi-plotter, semi-outliner. I’ll have a basic outline, and I usually know the ending, and then I’ll start writing from there. But I’m not a beat by beat person unless I’m writing a screenplay. Debbi (19:05): Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I tend to be more beat by beat, but I’m willing to vary from the beats. This is the thing for me. It’s like if I know where I’m going, that’s what counts. Marjorie (19:18): Yeah. Well, you do need to know the ending. Debbi (19:21): Yeah. Marjorie (19:21): It’s interesting because we are working on the publisher, the editor, my publisher that published The Savage Instinct, we are working on an adaptation of it, but it’s amazing just how much a feature movie requires you to strip the story right down to the essentials. Debbi (19:44): Absolutely. Marjorie (19:46): So I’ve done the beat sheet for The Savage Instinct, and I had to cut lots of the story out. I had to cut some side plots and some characters because the movie is just really lean. You have to get down to the essence of it. Debbi (20:11): Exactly. Yeah. You can’t have too many subplots. You can’t have too many characters. Not only is that going to confuse the audience, but the cost goes up. More actors. Marjorie (20:24): Yes. Well, that’s the thing. Yes. Debbi (20:25): This is a reality. Marjorie (20:27): Yeah. And that’s what my editor kept telling me. More characters, more money. And at the center of The Savage Instinct, it’s really a story about two women, a childless woman and a child poisoner. And it’s set in the Victorian era, but it’s a really strange dynamic between these two women. The childless woman is a prison visitor visiting the child poisoner. So a very strange relationship develops because the childless woman’s husband is very oppressed. He’s basically oppressing her. And yes, she forms a friendship with the poisoner and a sort of strange mentorship arises. I won’t say anymore. Debbi (21:28): Yeah, that does sound like a strange mentorship. Let’s see. What authors do you like to read? Marjorie (21:39): Interesting. The book that I’m currently reading now is written by a Canadian author who I really loved his first book. It’s called The Caretaker by Marcus Kliewer. He wrote, We Used to Live Here. I don’t really have heard of that one. He’s very, very good. I love Margaret Atwood. I think I’ve read most of her books. I read, I’m trying to think. I have so many books that I like. I used to read more suspense and thrillers than I do now. I liked Gillian McAllister. Debbi (22:30): Oh, yeah. I think Marjorie (22:30): It’s Gillian McAllister. I really liked her. Lisa Jewell, I’ve enjoyed some of her books. Then I just read a book called Liberty Street, which is by another Canadian author about a journalist that goes into a woman’s prison in the ’60s. She gets herself admitted to a woman’s prison because in the ’60s you could be sent there if you were incorrigible. You are an incorrigible young woman that your parents couldn’t contain you. You could be sent to this awful prison. Debbi (23:09): Oh, my goodness. Marjorie (23:11): Yeah. So I read a variety of books. Debbi (23:15): Wow, that sounds like quite an interesting book. Marjorie (23:18): Yeah. Debbi (23:19): Scary and horrible, but interesting. Yeah. How do you divide your time between writing and marketing? Marjorie (23:29): I probably don’t do enough marketing. The publisher does some. I’m published at present with a smaller British press, Bloodhound Books, and they’re really good at producing marketing materials. They do beautiful visuals and they make a trailer for the book and they’re really helpful, but you still, as the author, have to do quite a bit yourself. Debbi (24:01): Oh, yes. Marjorie (24:02): There’s Instagram posts. Well, I don’t know. I mean, if we knew what worked, I’m not sure. I see people nowadays are doing lots of recorded messages on Instagram and stuff, I guess, to make sure that people don’t think AI wrote their book or something. They’re trying to personalize their author platform. I have a website, but it takes a lot of time to do all this stuff. Oh, yeah. For sure. I write every morning, but once I’ve gone through the emails and then looked after a couple of things, I’m like, okay, where’s the time going? I haven’t written anything. So I have to have deadlines. I work best with a tight deadline. So my book, The Night Side, was published with Seven House who were taken over now by Joffe Books. And so I might be doing another one for them. I’m not sure, but I gave myself a deadline to finish this book. So once I know it’s coming up, then I really go to it and forget the marketing for a while. Debbi (25:26): Yeah, that’s probably best. Marjorie (25:29): Yeah. Debbi (25:29): When you’re in the zone on something, you really just have to stick with that. Marjorie (25:34): Yeah. Debbi (25:36): Let’s see. What kind of writing schedule do you keep? Marjorie (25:40): Well, I write every morning and take the afternoon off. Otherwise, my husband would be like, “Come on, let’s go out.” And I’m like, “Okay.” We golf and all of that. Then I write sometimes in the evening as well. Depends just what kind of a schedule I’ve got. Debbi (26:01): Yeah. Marjorie (26:02): You do have to set aside a period of time, but you can’t do it all the time. And I tend to write more in the winter. Summer’s a bit difficult because you’re just wanting to get outside and to be in the fresh air. Debbi (26:20): Absolutely. Marjorie (26:23): I write Saturdays and Sundays. There’s no day off. And in fact, really, there’s no time off ever because you probably know this, you’re always thinking about ideas. Debbi (26:36): Oh, yes. A writer never really takes a vacation. No, Marjorie (26:40): No, no. Debbi (26:43): There’s always something good cooking up there. I don’t know. Marjorie (26:46): Yeah. Even when I’m on vacation, I’m thinking, Debbi (26:51): Yeah, yeah. What will I write about this? Marjorie (26:53): Yeah. Yeah. Debbi (26:56): That’s interesting. Sometimes I catch myself blogging in my head. Marjorie (27:01): Oh, really? Debbi (27:01): Yeah. So to speak. Yeah. How would I blog this particular scene that’s taking place right now? Marjorie (27:09): And then you drift away and your husband’s probably like, “Hello?” Debbi (27:12): Hey, are you there? Marjorie (27:14): Yeah. Debbi (27:14): Listen to me. Okay. Yes. Marjorie (27:18): Actually, I’ve gotten into trouble a few times because I’m a people watcher and staring at people and their interactions. And I’ve had more than one set of people say, “Do you want a photograph or something?” Debbi (27:33): It’s funny because I have to really catch myself not to do that. It’s like I will see something and I’m just like, “Wow, that’s really interesting.” I mean, if people start to get to the point where they’re like, “Hey, what are you looking at?” That would worry me a little bit. Marjorie (27:51): Yeah. Well, actually, that was something that Carol Shields told us to do. She said, “You have to develop your writer’s eyes and ears. So you would look for something beyond the obvious.” Debbi (28:08): Exactly. Marjorie (28:09): “And then you listen to other people’s conversations.” And actually I have that in, I think it’s in my book, The Night Side maybe. Yeah, I talk about that. The character talks about that. It’s either that or The Perfect Family Man. I can’t remember. Now I’m getting them mixed up. But I used to tell that to my students because I taught creative writing at high school, and I’d send them out to just find images, find things around the school that they’d never looked at before. And they would come back and write it all on the board and there’d be a mass of different images. And it was amazing experience. Then I’d tell them to listen in on conversations and we’d make big displays of that. And they would go away and write stories inspired by one or more of those images or sound bites. They loved it. Debbi (29:15): That’s a very cool thing. Marjorie (29:17): Yeah, it was. Debbi (29:18): A very cool thing to get people writing. Marjorie (29:20): Yeah. Debbi (29:21): Good writing prompts. Marjorie (29:23): Yeah. Debbi (29:24): What advice would you give to anyone who’s interested in a writing career? Marjorie (29:30): Have a day job. Debbi (29:33): Yes. Marjorie (29:34): You can’t make enough money as a writer unless you’re one of the top. I don’t even know what the percentage is now. There’s not enough money to support you as a writer. So have a day job if you’re a young person, have a backup and have a very thick skin because you’re going to get criticized, you’re going to get … You’re going to be putting your work out there and you’re going to get some very weird reviews sometimes, but you can’t personalize it because not everybody’s going to like what you put out there. And another thing I would say is that for the older writer, it’s never too late. Writing is one thing that you can do regardless of your age. It doesn’t matter how old you are, as long as you can sit down and come up with a story, keep going with it. It’s a great thing to do as a retired person because you’re not worrying so much about the financial side of it. (30:45): But I would say only do it if you’re willing to pour out, sort of plunder your own emotional life and lay it bare for everyone to see. It’s a risky thing to do. Debbi (31:03): Yes. Yes, it is. Marjorie (31:08): And you expose yourself to other people’s scrutiny. Debbi (31:13): Yes. Yes, it is. It is a risky thing. And I’m not sure people really appreciate that until they actually do it. Marjorie (31:24): Well, the very first time that I had to share a piece of my work was in Carol’s class, and your heart’s pounding, you’re flushed and hot and cold, and you’re like, “People are going to hate it. People are going to hate it.” And then you read it. And thankfully, people liked what I read. So once I had done it a few times, I was fine, but I know a lot of young writers are reluctant to share their work. I would get students coming to me and saying, “I’ve got this book of poems. Will you look at it?” And I’d say, “Well, do you want me just to read it or do you want me to give you constructive feedback?” And some students would say, “No, I just want you to read it because it’s part of me. I don’t care to revise it.” And others would say, “Yeah, I want to make it better.” So know why you’re writing. (32:25): Are you writing to share it with other people? Or is it just something cathartic for you? And if it’s something to share and publish, then you have to know that writing is a business as well. Debbi (32:43): Yes. Yes to all of what you said. Marjorie (32:46): Yeah. Debbi (32:47): I mean, what great advice. Wonderful. Thank you. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we finish up? Marjorie (32:57): I think one of the things that as a writer that has been wonderful for me is, and probably for you too, is finding a community of writers, a virtual community, as well as writers here in my own hometown. But I have a very tight-knit group of writer friends all over the UK, the US, and Canada. And because it’s such a solitary pursuit, it’s great to have those people to complain to vent, to ask how they’re doing. It’s amazing. Do you find that too? Debbi (33:37): Oh, it’s definitely a good thing to have community for sure of people to talk about these things. Marjorie (33:45): Yeah, Debbi (33:46): Absolutely. Marjorie (33:49): And there’s some great organizations that are helpful in that, but I get to meet some of these people in person now at the Bouchercon in October. That’s right. The International. No, it’s not the International Thriller Writers, that’s Thriller Fest. Yeah, this year it’s in Calgary. Debbi (34:14): Calgary, yes. Marjorie (34:14): Big conference. Yeah. So I’m looking forward to that and moderating a panel. Debbi (34:20): It makes me wish I decided to go. Marjorie (34:24): Yeah. Debbi (34:25): Shoot. Marjorie (34:26): Calgary’s a beautiful place. Yeah. Debbi (34:28): I really would love to go back up to Canada and see more of it. Marjorie (34:33): Yeah, I think they’re doing some tours to the Rockies to ban from. It’s not too late. Debbi (34:41): I’ll give it some serious thought. Marjorie (34:43): Yeah. Yeah. Debbi (34:44): See if I can convince my husband to go up to Canada. I don’t see why he would object. He objects so much that’s going on down here that going to Canada might be a relief. Marjorie (34:58): Yeah, escape to the Rockies. You’d love it. Debbi (35:01): Yeah, yeah. Escape to the Rockies. Marjorie (35:01): And Calgary’s such a lovely town. Debbi (35:04): I’ve heard that they’re fabulous looking too. Marjorie (35:06): Oh, spectacular. Yeah. Debbi (35:09): Well, I want to thank you so much for being here and hang around for a little bit more because we’re going to do a bonus episode for the Patreon supporters. Marjorie (35:18): Okay. Debbi (35:18): Alrighty. Excellent. Thank you so much for being here, Marjorie. Marjorie (35:22): Thank you. It was great to talk to you. Debbi (35:24): Great talking to you too. Thank you. Marjorie (35:27): Okay, thanks. Debbi (35:29): So to all my listeners, thank you so much for listening. That goes especially to my Patreon and Substack supporters. Thank you for following me there and for supporting me there. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review. They help. And until next time, happy reading and I’ll be seeing you.
